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	<title>Comments for Health After Oil</title>
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	<link>http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>The Impacts of Energy Decline on Public Health &#38; Medicine</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 03:59:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Neoliberalism, Degrowth and the Fate of Health Systems by Ezequiel</title>
		<link>http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/neoliberalism-degrowth-and-the-fate-of-health-systems/#comment-1495</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ezequiel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Apr 2013 03:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/?p=864#comment-1495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is perfect time to make some plans for the future and it is time to be happy.
I have read this post and if I could I wish to suggest 
you some interesting things or advice. Perhaps you could write next articles referring to this article.
I wish to read even more things about it!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is perfect time to make some plans for the future and it is time to be happy.<br />
I have read this post and if I could I wish to suggest<br />
you some interesting things or advice. Perhaps you could write next articles referring to this article.<br />
I wish to read even more things about it!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on Physicians, the Global Environment and the Precautionary Principle by permintic</title>
		<link>http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/physicians-the-global-environment-and-the-precautionary-principle/#comment-1494</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[permintic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/?p=941#comment-1494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reblogged this on &lt;a href=&quot;http://permintic.org/2013/04/07/physicians-the-global-environment-and-the-precautionary-principle/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;permintic health &amp; wellness&lt;/a&gt; and commented: 
We need to treat climate change empirically, rather than wait for the proofs and risk global ecosystem collapse. Great talk!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reblogged this on <a href="http://permintic.org/2013/04/07/physicians-the-global-environment-and-the-precautionary-principle/" rel="nofollow">permintic health &amp; wellness</a> and commented:<br />
We need to treat climate change empirically, rather than wait for the proofs and risk global ecosystem collapse. Great talk!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Public Health, Thermodynamics and the Cat Food Commission by alan2102</title>
		<link>http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/public-health-thermodynamics-and-the-cat-food-commission/#comment-1478</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alan2102]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Mar 2013 09:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-1478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[I posted these comments over on resilience.org, but here is probably better...]

 &quot;The only way to protect the core functions and essential services of public health is by...understanding thermodynamics&quot;

Thermodynamics in the sense that you mean it has had very little to do with the core functions and essential services of public health, historically. Enormous benefits to the public health were delivered with little or no petroleum, and on vanishingly small energetic inputs in sum. The big gains in public health -- and life expectancy -- in the developed world came in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, before petroleum or even electrical power were commonly used. Basic sanitation, sewerage, water systems, regular collection of garbage and removal of it to landfills, and so forth, are the real fundaments of public health, even though they are less sexy and attention-grabbing than vaccines and condoms. Those basic systems were installed early and resulted in the big gains in disease prevention and increased life expectancy. Clean water may have been the biggest single factor.

The same thing happened in China after the revolution: sudden dramatic improvement of life expectancy, from about 30 to nearly 60 in a single generation!  These gains resulted from simple public health measures in the context of SEVERE thermodynamic constraints; i.e. they had little energy and no money with which to buy it. For example, China&#039;s oil consumption in 1970 was about 1% of the total global demand -- that is, with well over 20% of the global population. That just goes to show how much you can do with a very little bit of energy. They made breathtaking gains in public health on practically no energy at all, relative to the amount we now thoughtlessly guzzle down. For that matter, so did WE, a century and more ago.

The point is that there is very little relationship between energy (or &quot;thermodynamics&quot; if you prefer) and the great bulk of public health benefit. We can retain practically all (though perhaps not 100%) of our life expectancy and health gains of the last century even in a highly energy-constrained world. The problems are political and moral, not energetic or thermodynamic. You&#039;re right to denounce bullshit neoliberal ideology and classism, and you are right to be concerned about public health, but you confuse matters when you bring &quot;thermodynamics&quot;, or energy, into this discussion, as it has almost no place in it. Public health might indeed suffer in the coming decades, but it will not be for lack of energy resources. It will be for hogging of energy resources, with the 1% sucking down all they please, while telling everyone else that they&#039;ve got to tighten their belts because there&#039;s simply &quot;not enough to go around&quot;, and we&#039;ve just got to face up to the &quot;limits to growth&quot;, &quot;thermodynamic realities&quot;, and all that. See? I&#039;m not saying that there are no limits to growth or that there are no thermodynamic realities, of course. I&#039;m saying that those ideas are ALL TOO CONVENIENT, all too co-opt-able by slimebags.

By the way: I say &quot;perhaps not 100%&quot;, but that might be too pessimistic, since there is increasing evidence that the waste built-in to the system is so vast that wringing it out, and making much better use of resources currently being squandered, might allow us to retain all benefits while drastically reducing our energy/resource footprint. In fact, the more one investigates this thesis, the more certain it appears. See, for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_5:_A_Convenient_Truth
&quot;Factor 5: Transforming the Global Economy through 80% Increase
in Resource Productivity is a 2009 book by Ernst Ulrich von
WeizsΣcker and an Australian team at The Natural Edge
Project.[1] The book suggests that sustainable development can
be achieved by increasing resource productivity. The book
presents examples showing the availability of a factor of five
in efficiency improvements for entire sectors of the economy,
without losing the quality of service or well-being.[2]&quot;

............................................

PS: By the way, I could not agree more with your footnote #2: &quot;Most Americans are unaware of public health’s indispensible role in
preventing disease and protecting and promoting their safety and mental
and physical wellbeing&quot;.  Yes! Quite unaware. Everyone takes the fundaments for granted -- like air.

PSS: Would you mind using arabic rather than roman numerals? Roman numerals are cumbersome, which is the reason that no one uses them anymore.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[I posted these comments over on resilience.org, but here is probably better...]</p>
<p> &#8220;The only way to protect the core functions and essential services of public health is by&#8230;understanding thermodynamics&#8221;</p>
<p>Thermodynamics in the sense that you mean it has had very little to do with the core functions and essential services of public health, historically. Enormous benefits to the public health were delivered with little or no petroleum, and on vanishingly small energetic inputs in sum. The big gains in public health &#8212; and life expectancy &#8212; in the developed world came in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, before petroleum or even electrical power were commonly used. Basic sanitation, sewerage, water systems, regular collection of garbage and removal of it to landfills, and so forth, are the real fundaments of public health, even though they are less sexy and attention-grabbing than vaccines and condoms. Those basic systems were installed early and resulted in the big gains in disease prevention and increased life expectancy. Clean water may have been the biggest single factor.</p>
<p>The same thing happened in China after the revolution: sudden dramatic improvement of life expectancy, from about 30 to nearly 60 in a single generation!  These gains resulted from simple public health measures in the context of SEVERE thermodynamic constraints; i.e. they had little energy and no money with which to buy it. For example, China&#8217;s oil consumption in 1970 was about 1% of the total global demand &#8212; that is, with well over 20% of the global population. That just goes to show how much you can do with a very little bit of energy. They made breathtaking gains in public health on practically no energy at all, relative to the amount we now thoughtlessly guzzle down. For that matter, so did WE, a century and more ago.</p>
<p>The point is that there is very little relationship between energy (or &#8220;thermodynamics&#8221; if you prefer) and the great bulk of public health benefit. We can retain practically all (though perhaps not 100%) of our life expectancy and health gains of the last century even in a highly energy-constrained world. The problems are political and moral, not energetic or thermodynamic. You&#8217;re right to denounce bullshit neoliberal ideology and classism, and you are right to be concerned about public health, but you confuse matters when you bring &#8220;thermodynamics&#8221;, or energy, into this discussion, as it has almost no place in it. Public health might indeed suffer in the coming decades, but it will not be for lack of energy resources. It will be for hogging of energy resources, with the 1% sucking down all they please, while telling everyone else that they&#8217;ve got to tighten their belts because there&#8217;s simply &#8220;not enough to go around&#8221;, and we&#8217;ve just got to face up to the &#8220;limits to growth&#8221;, &#8220;thermodynamic realities&#8221;, and all that. See? I&#8217;m not saying that there are no limits to growth or that there are no thermodynamic realities, of course. I&#8217;m saying that those ideas are ALL TOO CONVENIENT, all too co-opt-able by slimebags.</p>
<p>By the way: I say &#8220;perhaps not 100%&#8221;, but that might be too pessimistic, since there is increasing evidence that the waste built-in to the system is so vast that wringing it out, and making much better use of resources currently being squandered, might allow us to retain all benefits while drastically reducing our energy/resource footprint. In fact, the more one investigates this thesis, the more certain it appears. See, for starters:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_5:_A_Convenient_Truth" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_5:_A_Convenient_Truth</a><br />
&#8220;Factor 5: Transforming the Global Economy through 80% Increase<br />
in Resource Productivity is a 2009 book by Ernst Ulrich von<br />
WeizsΣcker and an Australian team at The Natural Edge<br />
Project.[1] The book suggests that sustainable development can<br />
be achieved by increasing resource productivity. The book<br />
presents examples showing the availability of a factor of five<br />
in efficiency improvements for entire sectors of the economy,<br />
without losing the quality of service or well-being.[2]&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p>PS: By the way, I could not agree more with your footnote #2: &#8220;Most Americans are unaware of public health’s indispensible role in<br />
preventing disease and protecting and promoting their safety and mental<br />
and physical wellbeing&#8221;.  Yes! Quite unaware. Everyone takes the fundaments for granted &#8212; like air.</p>
<p>PSS: Would you mind using arabic rather than roman numerals? Roman numerals are cumbersome, which is the reason that no one uses them anymore.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Public Health, Thermodynamics and the Cat Food Commission by Iaato</title>
		<link>http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/public-health-thermodynamics-and-the-cat-food-commission/#comment-1451</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Iaato]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-1451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great article, and I really like the title, thanks. You tackled neoliberalism and its relationship with the federal government, and the impacts on general social constructs of public health in terms of insurance for the aged and the poor. The bases for public health are an assumption, and they are mostly as a result of bottom-up development of sanitation and other hygiene standards of a complex fossil-fuel based society. But control and funding are whims at the mercy of top-down control. Public health will suffer, and die off will occur. We will be helpless to stop it--there are too many competing interests, with the resources getting funneled or pulled to the top, although you infer more deliberate intent or malevolence from the neoliberals than I give them credit for. I think they just believe in the religion of Economics and the American dream.

But the real 800-pound gorilla sitting on the back of healthcare, including public health, is what happens to our system of medical ethics during energy descent when we can&#039;t provide the secondary and tertiary care anymore. We currently ration care by availability of social or private insurance. What happens when we have massive failure of our healthcare system, either through epidemic, economic collapse, or increasing inequity? We are just one bad germ or cesium heartbeat away from a need to triage our system of medical ethics with a serious dialogue about what is fair in a system with less resources--a lot less resources. As healthcare providers, we should be starting the dialogue?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, and I really like the title, thanks. You tackled neoliberalism and its relationship with the federal government, and the impacts on general social constructs of public health in terms of insurance for the aged and the poor. The bases for public health are an assumption, and they are mostly as a result of bottom-up development of sanitation and other hygiene standards of a complex fossil-fuel based society. But control and funding are whims at the mercy of top-down control. Public health will suffer, and die off will occur. We will be helpless to stop it&#8211;there are too many competing interests, with the resources getting funneled or pulled to the top, although you infer more deliberate intent or malevolence from the neoliberals than I give them credit for. I think they just believe in the religion of Economics and the American dream.</p>
<p>But the real 800-pound gorilla sitting on the back of healthcare, including public health, is what happens to our system of medical ethics during energy descent when we can&#8217;t provide the secondary and tertiary care anymore. We currently ration care by availability of social or private insurance. What happens when we have massive failure of our healthcare system, either through epidemic, economic collapse, or increasing inequity? We are just one bad germ or cesium heartbeat away from a need to triage our system of medical ethics with a serious dialogue about what is fair in a system with less resources&#8211;a lot less resources. As healthcare providers, we should be starting the dialogue?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Reports from Health Care Practitioners by michaelsbennett01</title>
		<link>http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/2012/07/16/reports-from-health-care-practitioners/#comment-1424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[michaelsbennett01]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthafteroil.wordpress.com/?p=852#comment-1424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reblogged this on &lt;a href=&quot;http://permintic.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/36/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;permintic health &amp; wellness&lt;/a&gt; and commented: 
This is a piece published last year on the Health After Oil blog]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reblogged this on <a href="http://permintic.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/36/" rel="nofollow">permintic health &amp; wellness</a> and commented:<br />
This is a piece published last year on the Health After Oil blog</p>
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